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John - Old Dawg P.
John - Old Dawg P. Sendmail

Sub 4:00 marathon

asked 5 months ago | Report

60 years old and started running about two years ago. Ran 40+ 5K races with typical time around 23:30. PR is 22:37. I have done 5 HM with average time around 1:52. My only marathon was Little Rock April 2011 with a 4:29:49. I was on 4:15 pace until mile 22 and everything fell apart. I am starting to train for OKC Memorial April 29, 2012. McMillan calculates me around 3:40 based on 5k and 3:55 based on half. I am using Hal Higdon Advanced I for training. I need sme advice on getting that 3:55 (which is a BQ). Based on history, my long runs aren't staying on 5k projections.

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Update-
Thanks everyone for the good advice. I have a Garmin that I use. Typically my HR when training is 135-140 and when I race it gets up around 160 which I believe is probably maximum, maybe not a good thing, but I like to feel I gave 100%. Should I back off the 135-140 HR training?

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6 answers

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  • Paul
    Paul Sendmail

    John,

    The fact that your performances at 5k and HM dont result in the same estimates from Mcmillan match your experience at little rock. Namely that your endurance is not what it could be.

    My suggestion would be to concentrate your training on building a stronger and bigger aerobic base. That means cutting out all the intervals, hill repeats, tempo runs etc... and concentrating on running at aerobic paces.

    There are two main pace brackets you can focus on the first is below your Mafetone Aerobic Threshold. This roughly equates to where your body switches from using fat to using glycogen... training below this will stimulate your body to become better at burning fat... you will grow lots more mitochodria, and improve the capiliarisation in your muscles.

    The next Aerobic bracket is just a little bit above that. where your body switches to primarily burning glycogen. training here will help you improve the glycogen stores, and help you get accostomed to pushing on when your running low.

    The only other running id include is a Sub LT run once a week or so to help push your LT up.

    Do this and build a strong Aerobic base and you will find that your performances across the range of distances will be closer to the predicted times bassed on a performance at a different distance.... ie your 5k and HM times will predict the same Marathon time.

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  • Brian W.
    Brian W. Sendmail

    I am a 62 years young runner & I Completely agree with Paul, long & very very slow miles to build up stamina, look at this link
    http://www.counterpartcoaching.com/hadd.pdf
    it takes a lot of patience but it does work

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  • Morey B.
    Morey B. Sendmail

    Agree with the above. You've got plenty of speed- excellent. And, I see by your logs you're a consistent runner 25-35mpw, sometimes more. If you do Hidgon's Advance 1- which I think gets you to 50mpw, you'll very likely go sub-4. If you want to give yourself some more margin, add more miles. Here's the good news... they can be run at an easy pace.

    you've got great speed for an old guy. especially one that's only been running for 2 years. you can trade some of that speed work in Higdon's plan (which is only 1 day/wk) for additional mileage. Then- if you don't already have one, get a garmin with a HR monitor and start learning your heart rate zones.

    In Little Rock you either went out too fast or didn't take in enough nutrition early enough in the race. So- you will need to get some practice pacing a marathon. At mile 13- you need to be at a pace that you feel like you could run forever, because the race isn't 1/2 over at this point, you're only 1/3 of the way there.

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  • David B.PRO
    David B. Sendmail

    I agree with everything that has been said here. I'm not quite 60 (51), but as an older runner there are challenges present that younger folks may not face. Morey mentioned a Garmin with a HR monitor - excellent recommendation. Training at 80% or below of maximum heart rate was very important for me last summer when I was preparing for my first marathon. I look forward to following your progress here on DM!

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  • Ryan
    Ryan Sendmail

    Paul's description of the brackets is excellent - it really illustrates how you want to make sure you are training at the proper intensity when you run, in order to maximize the benefit of the effort you are putting in.
    Morey's suggestion of the GPS HR monitor is also good - that kind of tool goes a long way to keeping you working at the proper intensity and zones.

    My first thought was nutrition - something else Morey touched on. That is something that requires some experimentation from one person to the next - be it how to carbo load beforehand, how much sports drink or how many gels to consume during a race, etc. With your only marathon being LR - the fact that in two years of running you stayed on pace for a 4:15 finish past 20 miles is really, really good. One idea might be to toy around with increasing your caloric intake during the first 13 miles in the form of simple sugars - gels, sports drink, etc.

    One thing I see on the Higdon program is that it says some runs should be at 'pace', and in the description he says that if you are aiming for a 4 hr finish, than 'pace' should be runs at 9:09 min/miles. I personally don't like this approach of training based on a goal pace because it doesn't target the proper intensity that you should be working out at which is optimal for your current conditioning. Maybe I should rephrase that to say that it is very easy to misinterpret what the workout paces should be. So when you look at the McMillan calculator, do you run your workouts based on the suggested paces on the resultant table?

    Finally - the Higdon program has you run 6x per week. That can be a lot, depending on your history and/or the type of training you do. As one gets older, recovery takes longer. It is easy to fall into the trap of running again before sufficient recovery has occured. Rest is just as important as the workouts, because rest is when all the things that Paul mentioned (capillarisation, increase in mitochondria) occurs. So make sure you are getting enough of that. If you find that you have dead or tired legs on some runs, that may be a sign that more rest is required. Everyone has those days once in a while - but if you notice it occuring regularly, you may want to remove some running days and opt for rest instead.
    In fact, in looking at the variety of the Higdon programs, you may want to go with the intermediate instead of the advanced. I know the advanced says to stay away if you've never done speed work before (and you've obviously done some speed work with those 5k times) - but a long haul marathon, and the speedwork for it, is completely different.

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  • Mike P.
    Mike P. Sendmail

    My personal advice to you is to hit the local track atleast once a week during your marathon training. I suggest 1000/1000 sets...a 1000meter = approx 2.5 laps, let me explain...
    1st half of your set (1000meters) you run at your 10K effort
    then the 2nd half of your set (1000meters) is your recovery, you run at your MGP (marathon goal pace).
    You want to start off with atleast being able to complete 3 full sets, then build this up weekly along with your speed. Remember the MGP is your recovery (if you can call it recovery) and this will be what will be the pace for your marathon. Keep pace with each set (don't increase or decrease the first 1/2 of your sets during your workout, sometimes you will have to slow your MGP to recover, but not your 10K. The ultimate goal is to see how long you can stay in that 'uncomfortable zone'. If you can build your self up to complete 16 sets (about 20miles) with your 10k at 7:30min/mile and your MGP at 8:30min/mile, I guarrantee you will be able to complete your average marathon at under 4 hours.
    GOOD LUCK

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